Pop band MUNA on queerness, Pride, and not caring if you're past your prime
“The fight for LGBTQ+ liberation is inseparable from the fight against capitalism”
With their fourth album Dancing On The Wall out now, MUNA’s Katie Gavin, Naomi McPherson and Josette Maskin discuss creative anxiety, queer identity, Pride, and why honest lyrics often have to stay. The band also reflects on LGBTQ+ liberation, anti-capitalism and building space for queer joy.
Your songs are full of characters who can see the trap they're walking into and walk into it anyway. Is that realism, or is it a critique?
Katie: “I see it as realism. What I find interesting is when the character in the song doesn't have the same level of awareness as the listener. 'So What' is basically sung from a place of denial: 'It's not gonna matter that this person doesn't love me, because I'm famous.' That's not actually true, but I like depicting a part of the human experience before you've gotten everything figured out. That's partially what music is for.”
Naomi: “Being a person is relearning everything from the place that you are. Just because we've talked about something in one song doesn't mean we understand that topic. You feel like you've learned something, and then you gotta fuck around to find out again.”
"if a lyric scares me because I think it might be too honest, normally that means it has to stay in the song"
How do the three of you divide decisions when you disagree on a song direction?
Josette: “I always decide.” (all three laugh)
Naomi: “We are the only existing American democracy. If one person has a bad feeling about something, we won't do it. We're very open to being wrong, even though we also have strong opinions.”
Katie: “We don't have rules for decision-making. No structure for what happens when two of us think one thing and one thinks another. And I do wonder, not to get all 'identity politics' about it, but I wonder if being queer and not being cis men helps us navigate. That's one of the biggest struggles a lot of bands have, and it's frankly impressive that we've handled it with fluidity.”
Josette: “We don't want to hurt each other. Sometimes we'll go down a path even if two of us don't agree, because resentment builds up otherwise. Two people can also be wrong, you know, until we all know what's right.”
“everyone's a little gay. i just don't think the human experience, especially when you're a teenager, is that black and white”
The song 'Buzzkiller' has the lyric: 'The band's doing well / I mean, we're doing alright / but I'm past my prime and everyone knows it.' Is that the song's protagonist, or is it a thought you sometimes have about the band itself?
Naomi: “I'll let Katie speak to the lyric, but me and Josette had the same reaction: obviously an excellent lyric. And also: oh, Katie. Poor bastard.”
Josette: “Poor Katie. But I think there is a real anxiety you experience as a creative person. We can get into compare and despair, looking at other careers and thinking: wait, is that where we should be? We're not immune to that.”
Katie: “This lyric speaks to two things. First: a lot of young people today feel past their prime at a ridiculously early age. Burnt out and hopeless very early in life. But there's also a particular experience in the pop music industry where once you turn 30, there's a sense of getting phased out. I read an interview with someone from the band Future Islands, and they talked about how devastating it is when people feel that a long-running band's new records just aren't that good. We have such a high standard for ourselves. If a lyric scares me because it might be too honest, normally that means it has to stay in the song.”
“in cishet patriarchy, if you're a young woman or femme adjacent, there's a pressure to make your best stuff while you're still 'hot'. it's so sick and twisted and just not true”
Naomi: “There's also a pernicious cultural layer to this that has everything to do with misogyny. In cishet patriarchy, if you're a young woman or femme adjacent, there's a pressure to make your best stuff while you're still 'hot.' It's so sick and twisted and just not true. Tori Amos, Joni Mitchell: so many artists who produced some of their best work in their 40s and 50s and beyond.”
'Wannabeher' plays with something really specific to queer experience: the blur between wanting someone and wanting to be them. Does that ambiguity land for straight audiences, or does it only really click if you're queer?
Katie: “They have to get it. I just don't think the human experience, especially when you're a teenager, is that black and white. Everyone has had some version of that experience, even if it's the tiniest degree. Like: 'Why do I love my best friend so much?' You know what I mean? Everyone's a little gay.”
MUNA has a huge queer fanbase, but you've also broken through to much broader audiences. Do you feel a tension between those two things?
Naomi: “Queerness travels better than people assume. In queer theory, there's a lot of art that is queer but made by people who aren't necessarily queer themselves, because being an artist means pulling against established structures in an inherently queer way. Your friend's normal-ass straight dad loves emotional singer-songwriter music. It works the same way. We make emotionally raw music that appeals to anyone who's lived a hard-ish life. And queer fans make the entertainment industry, point blank. But yeah: we welcome the straights.”
“there's a depth to the relationships i've had with other queer people that, if you were straight, you'd never fucking have”
Amsterdam is hosting WorldPride this year. What does Pride mean to each of you?
Katie: “Right now, for me, Pride is a little bit like queer supremacy. I want to hang out with queer people, organize with queer people, build beautiful spaces for queer people to have fun and feel free. I care so much about us. It's what I'm focused on.”
Naomi: “I try to ground my pride and my queerness as a liberation struggle that's intertwined with anti-capitalism. I don't think the two can be separated. There's always a side of Pride Month that's like: '[insert weapons manufacturer] says Happy Pride!' And it's like: go fuck yourself. Queerness is anti-capitalist and anti-war. The fight for LGBTQ+ liberation is inseparable from the fight against capitalism.”
Josette: “Gratitude. I wonder if, because of my identity, I've actually had the ability to have real intimate relationships with other people. There's a depth to the relationships I've had with other queer people that, if you were straight, you'd never fucking have. I'm grateful for that. It's rare. So fuck 'em.”
Dancing On The Wall is out now. MUNA is playing at the Melkweg in Amsterdam on Friday November 20th and at La Madeleine in Brussels on November 23rd.
